We began mocking up the battery racks with wood. First, we'll start with the 4 batteries where the gas tank used to be. From the trunk, two of the batteries' filler caps can be accessed. The front two will likely have to slide out into the cabin to gain access to the fillers. But, this won't be a problem. The batteries will be hidden from view, which I'm happy about.

Under the hood, we built racks for the front 6 batteries. I had brought one of the batteries home, so one of our dummy batteries is in it's place. These batteries are all very close. Some parts of the batteries (not the terminals) are almost touching the hood. Since wood is thicker than our steel will be, we will gain at least 1/4" of room. Also, each battery filler has very easy access. This is important, because if maintenance (water filling) is a chore, it won't get done as often.

In the last photo, you can see the vehicle with 9 of the 10 batteries in place. There will be one more in the front. The springs in the front will definitely be beefed up, but it will be drivable as it is. The rear looks much better, but it will also receive some air springs (already on their way).

I still need to finish my motor mount, and we'll start welding together the battery racks. Once they are in place, we'll be very close to an illegal test drive around the block. I can almost taste it. 120V will make this baby fly!

How much does each battery weigh? Looking at your shot of the batteries in the rear, what are the chances of getting another two in the wells just behind the seats. Moving the two you have right in the nose to that position will give better weight distribution I think. You certainly have a challenge getting them in and keeping the car useable.

I will watch with interest!

Cheers

Nick

Nick Jones
Somerset UK

www.tengaston.plus.com

I could surely put two of the batteries in the cockpit behind the seats. My main reason for not doing so is aesthetics. It's one thing to pop the hood and see all of the batteries and cables, but another to see it every time you look at the car. My mechanic friend is trying to get conversion customers and we all know how big of a factor appearance can be. Besides, where will the lovely ladies put their purses?

We're going to try this configuration out and see if handling suffers too greatly. I'm hopeful that it will be alright. Thanks for your interest.

If any of the forum readers are tired of tweaking the carbs, fiddling with timing, and oil stains in your driveway, I'd be happy to share all of my EV information with you. I've got schematics, lists of materials, and just the slightest bit of insight to share.

Do you use regenerative braking at all?

Would be game for an EV (probably a Herald rather than Spitfire) but it's not so easy in the UK - very few suppliers for EV parts and crazy prices unfortunately.

Don't worry about oil stains - with the Triumph tranny and rear end still place you get to keep those!

Cheers

Nick

Nick Jones
Somerset UK

www.tengaston.plus.com

I won't be using regenerative breaking. Regen ends up costing much more with the complicated parts. And that just isn't worth the 10% increase in range that it gives. It's more cost effective to just add another battery.

You could always just buy from American EV sources. You'll be spending much more for your shipping, but with a 1.5 exchange rate from the pound to dollar, you'll still end up ahead.

Here's a guy from New Zealand who bought his parts from America, and it didn't break his bank: http://www.kiwiev.com (He's got one of the best documented builds on the net!)

I'm sure a Herald would be a great choice.

Well worth watching!

Wouldn't work under "braking", but it would work very much like the "DFCO" feature of a modern car's ECU that allows you to use no fuel on deceleration. Obviously, you're already using no "fuel" (battery power) when you're off-throttle, but if you could recapture the energy of every 20-second coast-down that you encounter in city driving... it would REALLY extend your range.

Loren
1976 Spitfire 1500
1990 Beater Miata (sold!)
2007 Toyota Yaris 3dr

There are lots of people that have clever Regen systems though. This guy uses ultra-capacitors to store the power, as charging the batteries is wasteful and slow: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm

Things get expensive and complicated quickly with these mods, so I'm trying to keep things simple.

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectrica.htm

Happy Spitting... John Zissler
(Webpage now available with Wiring Schematics)
http://fire.prohosting.com/johnziss/spit/index.htm (Email reply on my webpages is wrong. It was onetel.com now it is virgin.net) john.zissler@virgin.net

The next task to attack is the battery racks. I've done a fair bit of cutting and prep work for the trays under each battery, this evening we're going to tack them together and begin mounting things into the car. Much of this relies on my mechanic's time commitments, as I don't have much practice on the MIG.

New coil-over springs have been ordered and they will go in with a complete suspension overhaul for the front. The rear will get some new air shocks and eventually I'll machine some teflon spacers for the rear springs.

There has been a slight setback with the controller, however, as the company sent out some defective controllers and I got one of them. They're claiming that they've solved the problem and the new controllers are better, and they're even throwing in a free upgrade to the next larger size up. I cannot complain too much. I'm still a bit away from that first test drive and there is plenty to do even after that.

YB
65 MKII 1500

This past weekend, after many hours of fitting and mounting everything, we wired up all of the high voltage components and took the car for a very short test drive around the back alley. The front springs are WAY too low. I messed up my spring selection. But that aside, the car performed great. The rest of the vehicle is still being restored, so it looked really bad, but the car had great acceleration and stopping power. We were sitting on milk crates, which made us rather high in the car. To be honest it looked like we were on a kiddie amusement park ride. But, everything worked exactly like it should have (save the springs). And it was a lot of fun!

I will remember to bring my camera the next time I work on the car.

Best wishes,

Jeff
Temecula, California

I've planned out the work I'll need to do before painting the car. I imagine that it will take about 3-4 solid work days of fixing small things around the car, before we're ready to spray British Racing Green. But once the painting is done, I'll tow the car back to my house and finish the restoration in my backyard. I'm sure I'll do a rush job, and just try to get the car on the road. Then as time and funds allow, I'll go back and finish any cosmetics that bother me: hard top, dash, radio, re-chroming bumpers, etc.

I got so excited that I put the car back into the CA DMV system. I brought in the original black plates with the 1965 registration for the car so they'll let me keep the original license plates. Now, I just need to bring the car by for an inspection and it will be legal and registered as an electric car!

Lately I've been managing my time better, so I'm hoping to get the car on the road by early May.

Assuming that the spring rates are acceptable, then all you really need is a pair of spacers to raise the front ride height.

You can add the spacers in the same place that the factory did it, where the three bolts attach the spring/shock assembly to the subframe tower at the top. Don't have to take the assembly apart to do it.

Rather than a single spacer, make a bunch of thinner ones (1/8", and that way you can stack them to use only as many as needed, and change height later, or balance left/right if you desire. The three bolts might need to be longer than stock.

Carter

I still don't know why my spring choice was that far off. But, I'm going to weigh the car once it's got everything on it (seats/carpet/bumpers/etc) to more accurately choose my springs. I must've done something very wrong while plugging numbers into the excel spreadsheet. But I still can't find my error.

I need to replace the bushings and trunnion on the left side still anyway, as well as the trunnion on the right. I'm destined for some major work on the suspension!

If so, that means "only" about .75" or so of spring spacer is needed.

The leverage effect of the suspension linkages causes the spring rate at the wheel to be different than the rate of the spring itself.

I don't recall the exact ratio (and it changes a bit depending on how far the suspension is compressed).

Perhaps someone else on the list can supply a better estimate?

But that's still 6 1/8" spacers.

Carter

Assuming that the correct ride height is with the suspension arms parallel (is that right?), the car is about an inch too low, so I need to add about 1.5 inches to the spring height.

I know the proper angle, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

You can now see that I was very off in my spring calculations.

If I am correct in this, I tink you need to rethink this. If the coils you are using are being compressed to the extent that the height is too low, adding spacers might give the car the desired height buyt will do little for the ride.

The symptom tells me that the springs are approaching a "Coil-bound" situation in which heavy bumps will cause the springs to bottom out.

What you really need to do is have new coils wound with the correct height and rate specifications. That way, the springs will have enough play that the car will have the proper spring action.

Joe

To get the car driving, however, I'll need to add the spacers. Besides, they're almost done and they're free.

If you're only 1" too low, I wouldn't be too concerned with coil bind, but of course that should be checked. The spring vendor should have furnished the free length, spring rate, and bind height.

Rather than keep throwing new springs at the problem (can get expensive), maybe take some measurements, and do this easy experiment to determine the lever ratio for the suspension at the ride height you want:

1) Measure ride height at one front wheel.
2) Loosen the nylock nuts on the three bolts that hold the top plate to the suspension subframe by about 1/4"
3) Jack the car up until the gap between the top plate and the subframe opens up.
4) Take a couple of long 1/4 bolts, slide the shanks between the top plate and the subframe, and between the mounting bolts and the shock mount.
5) Lower the jack so that the 1/4" bolt shanks are wedged between the top plate and the subframe, effectively forming a 1/4" spacer.
6) Roll the car back and forth until the suspension settles fully.
7) Measure the new ride height at the front wheel, compare to 1) above.

Assume the 1/4" spacer experiment yields an increase of ride height of X".
Then the suspension lever ratio LR is X"/(1/4"

Reverse procedure above to remove the 1/4" bolts, tighten 3 mounting nuts.

Now measure the actual fitted length of the spring itself, flat end to flat end, as accurately as you can (to 1/16" or better).

Assume fitted length you measure is Y inches.

Assume free length spec is F
Assume spring rate spec is R

then use the spring formula to find the actual load L on the spring:

L = (F-Y)*R

If you need to raise the ride height by 1", then divide 1" by the lever ratio LR to get the increase in spring fitted length needed, call it T.

So the new fitted length needed to get the ride height you need would be Y+T.

Now use the published manufacturers spring specs (see sites like www.bluecoilspring.com for example) for free height and spring rate to find the spring with the closest value of fitted length (Y+T) at load L. Choose the spring that yields ride height at or a bit less than (Y+T). It's easy to add a thin spacer to bring it up to the exact ride height you want, it's hard to make ride height lower.

Or, just screw all this BS, and get a pair of adjustable threaded body shocks.

Carter

I'm sorry I'm still not understanding. I uploaded a jpg of Paul Gethne's diagram. I think this will help define things.

From the diagram, it looks like having the lower arm parallel to the ground is the appropriate configuration for the car. Correct?

When I have the batteries in (the car is still naked, and missing many heavy parts like the bumper, windshield, windows, seats, carpet, driver, etc.) the lower shock absorber point is 1" higher than the frame attachment point. In other words, I need to add 1" to the arrow described as S*sin(theta). According to Paul's xls file, theta is 53 degrees. Sin(53)= 0.80. So if I increase S by 1"/0.80 (or 1.25" I'll reach the right ride height. Of course, I still need to add a few hundred pounds of stuff to the car, so I'm planning on adding a 1.5" spacer, which will result in a 1.2" ride height lift. But, the extra weight of stuff I have to add will probably bring that back down to 1".

Am I making sense? I'm racking my brain and my math still looks right.

As I said, this is a temporary solution until I can finish the vehicle. Then I'll change out the springs for proper ones, once I properly weigh the vehicle.

In the meantime, I'll start looking for some adjustable threaded body shocks. Any good leads?

When the model and reality differ, it's the model that gets revised.

For threaded body shocks, the usual suspects, TSI, Spitbits, BPNW, Rimmer, Canley, etc.

Carter

Here are some photos before the paint. My friend will actually spray sometime tonight, so I won't see it until tomorrow, when I tow the car back home.

Whoo Hoo! Progress feels great!

But late last night, I had an idea that I might just try out. I can get the nut on the shock, but not with the rubber bushing and proper washer underneath it. What I need is a different way to compress the spring. What if I install the shock and spring into the car, and load it up with the lead batteries. This will certainly compress the spring, and I will be able to easily get the rubber and washer underneath those nuts. Is this crazy?

The coil springs have a nasty habit of bending sideways under pressure, as the lower shock mount allows the whole assembly to pivot (don't ask me how I know this!).

What you propose can work, but you must be careful, as once the top threaded section of the shock is free of the hole in the subframe, there's nothing to hold the shock body and spring concentric if it 'decides' to bend sideways.

You don't want to be sticking your fingers between the coil springs to manipulate bushings, washers, etc., when the spring could suddenly shift and umm ... 'pinch'.

Find a piece of metal tubing or pipe 6-8" long that will just fit over the threads of the upper shock stud, but is small enough to fit thru the hole in ther subframe. Or even better, thread the tube so that it screws onto the shock stud. It can act as an extension of the shock stud to hold the spring and shock body concentric.

Once you have assembled the suspension and loaded enough weight to compress the spring so that the shock stud pokes through the hole, remove the tube, and place the top bushing, washer, and retainer nut(s).

Be careful!!!

Carter

I'll be sure to keep my fingers safely out of the coils. That's what screwdrivers and needle nose pliers are for!

I will have to do this for the other side as well, and I will just try to use the car's weight to retrofit that one.

I'm glad to hear that using the weight of the car is doable. I'm extremely tired of suspension work. Once I finish this, I'll be able to put in the batteries and then just finish up the wiring, windshield, seats, throttle, ... Then I'll be done!

Tonight will be more than

Carter

Here are some photos:

Here is the ride height with the batteries, but without the windshield, bumpers, headlamps, seats, driver...

Just about right!

I can't wait to take the car for a drive and feel how the springs act. If they have a good ride to them, I may just leave them as is. If they are prone to bottoming out or something, I'll change them out. Especially since I now know HOW to change them easily.

The batteries are back in. The windshield is installed. The next step is to wire everything back in and run the wires for the headlights, taillights, etc. I tested things on the bench and the circuits seem to be functioning. Now I just need to make sure everything gets plugged in correctly.

After that, I'll be able to throw in the seats and drive around the neighborhood.

As of right now, the lights are still not wired up, so I've been driving during the day and using hand signals. 5 electric miles on the trip meter so far. I'm taking it slow while the electric motor brushes wear in.

What a fun ride! It's very quiet. The transmission is the loudest part of the car, but I don't have the tunnel cover in yet. It seems to drive fine in 4th gear, which means that the transmission probably isn't needed at all. I'll have to wait until I try some hills to know for sure.

I've still got a long way to go, but I feel like I've accomplished something. I'm still going to be tinkering every evening in the backyard until the car is actually legal.

Try a quick run in 1st gear and see how much rubber you can turn into smoke.

Loren
1976 Spitfire 1500i
2007 Toyota Yaris 3dr
2006 MINI Cooper (wife's)

It was rather frustrating trying to bring the car back into the California system. For some reason it was difficult to get it registered with the original plates, despite having the plates, car, and registration from 1964 in hand. The easiest part of the whole ordeal was the actual inspection of the car. I popped the hood and the inspector simply read off the VIN and checked the "Electric" box. It took four office workers to do the rest.

Now I just need to finish all of the small things such as paint, lights, seats, interior, etc...

Getting the throttle to feel just right took a while. I added some springs under the dash so the pedal has the right feel, then connected some gears to the end of the rod to get the right action on the potentiometer. Now everything feels like a normal car should. Once I got all of that finished, I was able to put the batteries back in and drive it around town. I put about 30 miles on the car and decided to charge everything up again. And for some reason, my chargers went kaput. 4 of them failed at the same time! It's very frustrating. They're under warranty so I just have to send them back, but it's still quite a pain. I'm thinking that I may try a different charging solution, but it will cost me another $750. I just hope I can sell the other chargers on ebay to get some bucks back. Once the charger is installed, I'm going to put that last coat of paint on.

After getting to drive the car a bit, I'm re-invigorated for the time being. I can't wait to make some more progress!

The new charger came in and it works great! I plug it in and it works, and there's no better solution than that. It's also faster and more efficient than my previous solution. So far so good.

I've been driving the car around town, showing it off to friends and anyone who will listen to my bragging. I've put over a hundred miles on it so far and it's been fantastic. The silence is amazing. There is a slight squeek coming from the front right wheel, but even with that people cannot hear me coming at all. It's an odd feeling to be waiting for a stoplight to change in a completely silent car. And it's even better to hear the gasps of surprise as I silently drive away. Driving an electric car is certainly a different experience.

I'm preparing for the final body-work and painting push to be done next weekend. But in the meantime, I washed off the treesap and dust to take some glamour photos. Enjoy!

I've got a pile of cosmetic or small stuff to put on the vehicle, from the license plate light to the carpet. But, we'll see how much progress I can get through today. I am definitely excited!

Happy Spitting... John Zissler
http://fire.prohosting.com/johnziss/mysite/index.htm

All in all, I'm still not convinced it was smart to keep the tranny, but now that I know it can shift, I can use lower gears when I need to, and it's much more useful.

I must say, I love driving the car. I never got to drive a gasser Spitfire, but I'm sure enjoying the EV version!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKvxOuXybCo

JOhn

Happy Spitting... John Zissler
http://fire.prohosting.com/johnziss/mysite/index.htm

You innovators should work tgether!

JOhn

I am active in a forum for DIY EVers, where many innovators are trading ideas and information. I'm focusing lately on the battery threads, as that's generally the weak link in EVs.

In other news, I've been very busy with other projects in my life. I hope you don't mind if I brag a bit and link to a video that I helped make: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qybUFnY7Y8w After the video hit the internet our phones have been ringing off the hook with other projects. Talks are in the works with producers for a reality TV show based on our group: http://www.syynlabs.com. We've been approached by no less than 10 production companies. That's on top of all of the new projects that are being thrown our way. It's all very overwhelming.

Normally, i'm allergic to music videos, but this is the engineering geeks music video! Well done.

I could only have wanted more detail of the enormous number of flims, flams and macguffins you designed, but that's my geekness.

I'll be linking other geek sites to your video.
John

I'm glad you liked it! We're feeling very good about some awards nominations next year.

Cheers,
Dan

Quote

---

Cogzzoid,
FANDABBADOOZY!

Normally, i'm allergic to music videos, but this is the engineering geeks music video! Well done.

I could only have wanted more detail of the enormous number of flims, flams and macguffins you designed, but that's my geekness.

I'll be linking other geek sites to your video.
John

---

Happy Spitting... John Zissler
http://fire.prohosting.com/johnziss/mysite/index.htm

I've been taking about half of my trips in my EV lately. It gets me to work just fine, and I still love this car. I get a smile every time I hop in and silently drive away (especially when leaving work!). I've gotten more than a few random compliments from strangers in the next lane over, as well as handwritten notes on the windshield. One guy mentioned his desire to convert one of his Heralds, but his phone number didn't work so I couldn't get in touch with him.

Direct drive is working splendidly. Although ultimately I'm not happy with the driveshaft kludge solution I am using. I bought a large piece of steel so I can make a one-piece solution that will mate the motor directly to the driveshaft. But, I'm going to hold off on that swap until later.

I've also got a proper drive-by-wire solution worked out for the accelerator. At the moment I'm still using some gears to turn a potentiometer, and that's just not the best solution. If the gears slip I could end up in a high throttle position and I'd have to quickly open the contactors. I practice this emergency procedure just in case, since it could be very disastrous.

My big upgrade plans involve putting in a large batch of Lithium batteries. I've been saving my money and I've finally got enough in the bank for the expensive upgrade. The batteries will be a higher voltage (144V vs. 120V), have a larger capacity (160Ah instead of 150Ah), and weigh 300 lbs less (530lbs vs 830lbs) than my current lead pack. Lead also suffers much worse from Puekert's Law, which dramatically reduces the effective capacity from the batteries. I won't purchase the batteries until January, but in the meantime I'm planning and daydreaming on how awesome the upgrade will be. With 23kWh of energy in the car, I'll have quite a range. At 250Wh/mile (conservative estimate) I'll get almost 75 miles of range before discharging to 80%. Not only that but the car will be faster with the weight savings but also have a higher top speed due to the higher voltage.

Of course, I'll keep you guys posted as these upgrades come together. I'm hoping to be fully done by the summer.

In other news, I've been busy with Syyn Labs stuff still. Here are a couple of short videos of some public art we did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn4EW3gan6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8gsiYpYat8

Cheers!

Joe

Next phase is hydrogen generating systems small enough to be put onboard a car which converts water into its two components. The oxygen goes into the air and the hydrogen goes to power the vehicle.

Burned hydrogen is turned back into water and is polution free.

Joe

Dave Denison
Westminster, Maryland USA
1970 Spitfire Mk3 FDU78359L
34/11: Jasmine yellow/Black interior

At home, about a buck. Of course I only get about 25 miles on these inefficient lead batteries. But when I convert to lithium batteries in the next month or so I'll be getting 60 miles on about $2.

The real cost of EV ownership is the replacement of the batteries once they go south. A fresh pack of batteries for my car will cost ~$8K, but they last about 10 years if I'm careful. Once you factor in all of the maintenance I won't have to do: oil changes, spark plugs, etc. The EV is more economical. But, I'll have a limited range and that huge initial cost.

I still drive a small beat up old toyota truck so I can haul things and/or drive long distances. But the goal is to make this Spit my daily driver.

At 250 Wh/mile I'll get over 70 miles of range with these batteries (only discharging to a safe 20%). 250 Wh/mile is actually a conservative number. Some Spit conversions have gotten almost 200 Wh/mile.

These batteries are also 400 lbs lighter than the lead batteries. This will be a much faster car as a result! I can't wait to get these under my hood.