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Subject: "TriumphTune Performance Manual Project" Locked thread - Read only
 
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Conferences GT6 & Spit 6 Central GT6 Performance Mods & Competition Prep Topic #42
Reading Topic #42
John R Daviesmoderator
Charter Member
2555 posts (A TTN governor, governor)
Feb-06-04, 03:10 PM (PST)
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"TriumphTune Performance Manual Project"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-04 AT 03:17 PM (PDT)
 
All,
New readers start here.
Moss have ceased to publish the TriumphTune performance manual. For those who have not seen it, this is an invaluable information source on tuning both four and six cylinder Triumphs, as well as a catalogue of TT parts.
Two things arise:
1/ What does this mean for the future supply of the specialised performance parts that are the legacy of Sid and Terry Hurrel to us via TriumphTune? Enquiries will be made and reported here.

1/ Can we publish it as a *.pdf file here on the TTN? We have the technology! The question is copyrights etc. Again, the response from Moss will be reported here.

I'll put a flyer on the Spitfire Forum, but shall we confine discussion to this one thread?

John


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
TriumphTune Performance Manual Project John R Daviesmoderator Feb-06-04 TOP
  RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project Bill A Feb-06-04 1
     RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project John R Daviesmoderator Feb-07-04 2
         RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project ajohnson38 Feb-07-04 3
             RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project John R Daviesmoderator Feb-07-04 4
                 RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project ajohnson38 Feb-07-04 5
                     RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project gt6nut Feb-09-04 6
                         RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project gt6nut Feb-11-04 7
                             Wolf! NOT! John R Daviesmoderator Feb-13-04 8
                                 RE: Wolf! NOT! gt6nut Feb-13-04 9
                                 SAH et al GT Jul-08-06 10
                                     RE: SAH et al tonymrfixitteam Jul-09-06 11
                                         RE: Toilet-tunes GT Jul-11-06 12
                                             RE: Toilet-tunes tonymrfixitteam Jul-11-06 13
                                             RE: Toilet-tunes GT Jul-11-06 14
                                             RE: Toilet-tunes tonymrfixitteam Jul-11-06 15
                                             RE: Toilet-tunes GT Jul-11-06 16

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Bill A
Member since Dec-8-01
337 posts (Keeps a clean machine)
Feb-06-04, 05:27 PM (PST)
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1. "RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project"
In response to message #0
 
   John,

I've never bought anything from the Moss on your side and very little from the Moss on our side (overpriced). I have looked at their website catalog but it's not a very good one. I emailed them about the Triumpnh Tune step down intake manifold for triple Webers on a GT6 but this was not a priority purchase any time soon. I'd like to find out if they are going to keep selling this and if I can still get it. Let us know if you hear anything more.

Thanks,

Bill Allison
74 Spitfire
69 GT6
65 Jag XKE
70 VW Karmann Ghia


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John R Daviesmoderator
Charter Member
2555 posts (A TTN governor, governor)
Feb-07-04, 05:28 AM (PST)
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2. "RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project"
In response to message #1
 
Bill,
Remember that Moss took over TriumphTune, to expand their product range from MGs. IMHO they never took the Triumph side of their business seriously. The TT manual is a genuine TT product, that they continued by inertia. There are now several other sources of Triumph tuning advice (eg up-dated Kastner, Wolfe) but this is the daddy, or grand-daddy, and worth saving if we can.
John


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ajohnson38
Member since Aug-20-03
744 posts (TTN Power Member - a well respected man)
Feb-07-04, 10:27 AM (PST)
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3. "RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project"
In response to message #2
 
   I have a copy of the TT performance manual. There is some excellent information in the book and allowing us to reprint it would be excellent. For someone building an autox car in the US or vintage car it is Brilliant. Some of the information only gets you thinking about where to go next. The only thing for the people on this side of the pond is that there is a completely different line of parts to make a car competetive in the US for road racing.

But none the less, the TT folks have an excellent resource book for how to poslish connecting rods, some cam selection, cylinder head prep, needle selection...

I used the book a ton for my TR6, but not as much for my Spit.

aaron

Aaron Johnson
#87 H-Prod Spitfire MkIV Southern Illinois Region SCCA
http://hpspitfire.servebeer.com


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John R Daviesmoderator
Charter Member
2555 posts (A TTN governor, governor)
Feb-07-04, 04:01 PM (PST)
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4. "RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project"
In response to message #3
 
Al,
I fear I may have raised a false alarm!
I am informed by a UK colleague that Moss now incoporate the Performance Manual inside the Spitfire manual.

That must be a very thick manual (my 2003 copy isn't) and Ms Sartori is most ill-informed!
I've requested a copy of the Spitfire manual, and will report back. I hope I'm shouting "Wolf!".
John


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ajohnson38
Member since Aug-20-03
744 posts (TTN Power Member - a well respected man)
Feb-07-04, 11:10 PM (PST)
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5. "RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project"
In response to message #4
 
   Speaking of Wolf...or should I say Wolfe, another great reference for performance tuning of spitfire is Jon Wolfe's book. I think I bought it before I bought the competition prep manual.

Aaron Johnson
#87 H-Prod Spitfire MkIV Southern Illinois Region SCCA
http://hpspitfire.servebeer.com


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gt6nut
Member since Mar-26-03
112 posts (Likes anything and anybody fast and low to the ground)
Feb-09-04, 06:16 AM (PST)
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6. "RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project"
In response to message #5
 
   All,

I called Moss-UK this morning to order my intake manifolds. There is some good news.

I was mistaken about Peter Cox of Moss. Apparently, Spitfire & GT6 was talking about another Peter Cox who worked with Group 44 and Coventry garage. I was assuming (and hoping not), that the Peter Cox in charge of the TT project at Moss was the same as the one from the Coventry and Group 44 background.

Also, they had in stock the 3 stepped intake manifolds for Webers on a GT6 that allow the standard bonnet to be used. They also had the linkage kit (I got the cable version because I plan to change the GT6 arrangement).

I asked the salesperson who I could contact to talk to about publishing the TT catalog. He told me to talk to Peter, who is still with them. I will go through my old emails at home tonight and find his email address and drop him a line. As mentioned before, communication with him as been sketchy as they tell me he travels frequently.

I will keep you posted on what I learn,

Tom

Tom McVeigh


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gt6nut
Member since Mar-26-03
112 posts (Likes anything and anybody fast and low to the ground)
Feb-11-04, 07:12 AM (PST)
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7. "RE: TriumphTune Performance Manual Project"
In response to message #6
 
   The latest update right now.

Peter Cox responded to my request and has forwarded it to the Marketing department. I am waiting to hear from either of them. He is in favor of preserving this information, but it is a Marketing department decision.

He also indicated that he has had a few odd comments after his namesake, the 'older' Peter Cox passed away.

Also, the manifolds I ordered Monday were on my doorstep in the US on tuesday night. Who knows what I paid for the freight, but its nice to have then in hand.

Tom

Tom McVeigh


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John R Daviesmoderator
Charter Member
2555 posts (A TTN governor, governor)
Feb-13-04, 12:33 PM (PST)
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8. "Wolf! NOT!"
In response to message #7
 
All,
Oh, dear!
My copy of the new Moss Spitfire catalogue has arrived, and sure enough, it includes a 35 page "Performance & Tuning" section. I haven't been through it checking word for word, but much of what was in the old manual looks to be there. I presume that the GT6 version has a similar section.

Sorry to raise a false alarm!
John


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gt6nut
Member since Mar-26-03
112 posts (Likes anything and anybody fast and low to the ground)
Feb-13-04, 02:56 PM (PST)
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9. "RE: Wolf! NOT!"
In response to message #8
 
   John,

While I have not received mine, Peter told me to get the TR5/6 catalog when he was mentioning making sure I took care of my thrust washer. Maybe it also has technical info on the 6 cylinders.

One of Peter's points was that he liked the organization of the Performance Manual.

I will continue to pursue in the background.

Thanks for the update.

Tom

Tom McVeigh


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GT
Member since Jul-8-06
31 posts (Still stumped on the "rule of 9")
Jul-08-06, 12:19 PM (PST)
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10. "SAH et al"
In response to message #8
 
   There is a saying that runs in the trade as follows.....

Mr H...yes his dad Syd was good and new a little about modifying engines.....he even made some good ones in the 60s and 70s!

The son, the less said about the better....doesn't know a fat lot about anything except how to charge for bad stuff that DETUNES the engine! I don't think I have ever seen a TT conversion that worked in fact, or gave the power claimed!

think you all know who I mean...and he used to serve on the counter previously at SAH in Luton...

we didn't like him one bit then, and it hasn't got better!


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tonymrfixitteam
Member since Dec-25-02
2633 posts (A TTN governor, governor)
Jul-09-06, 01:40 PM (PST)
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11. "RE: SAH et al"
In response to message #10
 
GT I understand where you are coming from, and to a large extent have to agree. I remember a couple of 'run-ins' with Mr H Junior, in the 70's, Looking back I would have to say I was perhaps a little arrogant myself, But!!!
The TT manual does make exaggerated claims, there products are not usually the best available and some are just plane wrong or don't work, But I will say that the TT manual is a good read for anyone STARTING to 'Breath some life' into their Triumph, and a good basis for discussion.
What gets me is when you meet someone how believes the book came down to mortal man from the Almighty, and if you have other ideas, you're an idiot!
I also understand how it feels for someone else to profit from your Hard work and innovation, just cos they got the $, Name, Backing. It happened to me in the past (and looks like it's happening NOW in the Aquaculture field.
Not nice, but a word to the wise. Put it behind you! if you carry the angst, you loose twice! take some pride in the fact your Idea worked, even if some Scumbag gets the $.

Tony M
74 Spitfire 1500
84 Toyota Pickup
03 VW Golf


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GT
Member since Jul-8-06
31 posts (Still stumped on the "rule of 9")
Jul-11-06, 07:26 AM (PST)
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12. "RE: Toilet-tunes"
In response to message #11
 
   Aha, yes just now I make sure get paid for it, pity no Triumph stuff,-more Lambos, Astons, Jags et al.

Pretty much the same rules apply, it's just now when I make a jig, they sign on the dotted line.....and I take it home with me....thank you very much!

In retro, the F1 exhaust was the most interesting/amusing/rewarding project, seeing those engineers struggling, fooling about, then coming up with a design that pulled 12bhp more on a V12 than their best effort it's well rewarding.
Why can't we have V12 F1 cars any more? I hate V8s!

GT


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tonymrfixitteam
Member since Dec-25-02
2633 posts (A TTN governor, governor)
Jul-11-06, 08:25 AM (PST)
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13. "RE: Toilet-tunes"
In response to message #12
 
GT, there was a thread not long ago in the Spitfire performance section on the PRI 'Bag o worms' header, it would be interesting to hear your views on this.

Tony M
74 Spitfire 1500
84 Toyota Pickup
03 VW Golf


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GT
Member since Jul-8-06
31 posts (Still stumped on the "rule of 9")
Jul-11-06, 08:52 AM (PST)
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14. "RE: Toilet-tunes"
In response to message #13
 
   I was asleep that day or doing something else.

What was it about?

GT


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tonymrfixitteam
Member since Dec-25-02
2633 posts (A TTN governor, governor)
Jul-11-06, 11:26 AM (PST)
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15. "RE: Toilet-tunes"
In response to message #14
 
To save you reading the whole thread, many of us think that the under hood heat from all that pipe would proberbly offset any possible power gains from having (possibly) optimal length primaries.

Tony M
74 Spitfire 1500
84 Toyota Pickup
03 VW Golf

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GT
Member since Jul-8-06
31 posts (Still stumped on the "rule of 9")
Jul-11-06, 01:42 PM (PST)
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16. "RE: Toilet-tunes"
In response to message #15
 
   ah yes, that thing!!

The question that springs to mind is..
..and yes why bother???

It won't work.
There's a simple explanation, which is called rudely..
...well, go buy a cross flow ford...at least you get a good reliable engine and easily up to 140bhp on a 1300, (more with a BDG or even a TC...) take it to bits and study the grossly over simple engine and wonder how it works so well.....with a sintered crank and rods and ridiculously heavy pistons?

Why do 4-1 manifolds grossly and annoyingly work on crossflows and NOT on Triumphs, and perhaps, also, why do crossflow cams give such universally lousy results (with just a few exceptions) on Triumphs when they work great on Crossflows?

The simple answer is,- The Triumph head doesn't work, burn, breathe or even remotely work like a X-flow Ford.
Of course loads of people stupidly like to try to increase the lift with those lousy roller rockers, lighten the valve gear like crazy, and who knows what else....!
I never did any of those things, didn't need to.
Never did those things either on F Fords so what exactly is supposed to be the point of 1.65:1 rockers on a Triumph?

For a start it grossly modifies the profile of the camshaft, and because it's a "rocker" does it in a completely NON linear way...
(A rocker always draws an arc, it's NOT a simpler lever like on the Pinto.
So you then have a totally unknown cam driving totally unknown or probably far from optimal acceleration in the valve train, and overlap which has nothing in common with the original cam design, and nothing in common with the flow characteristics of a crossflow Ford.

So, -Exit TH3, or whatever you name it, they're all cheapo Xflow Ford copies, some others I saw were from a Norton bike I believe....another fatal error...old brit bikes usually have hemi heads.....hemi heads have NOTHING in common with Triumph heads....and overlap on hemis is limited to prevent backflow....etc etc etc

Even on mild cams, a F Ford 1600 gives 100-120+bhp.
Even a reasonably WELL tuned 1500 Spitfire is struggling to get close to this, and the torque characteristics are simply dreadful in comparison despite the long stroke, tall block and nice long rods....

I mean when the Ford gets going from about 3000rpm, with a decent cam and head it goes like an ABSOLUTE rocket from 5000 on, as you would expect with monster valve area, (even with piddling little short rods and low down gudgeon pins), that is with even a "244" GOOD strong power up to 7500 with no worries about blowing up !!!!

What's the secret?
THE HEAD.

Even the pre-xflow 1500 Ford head (which is similar to the Triumph head in many ways) breathes a TON better than the Triumph one.
(I've seen some of those old Lotus7 heads doing 160bhp+ on a 1550 with 30mm (yes 30mm chokes!!)
They all have one thing in common, excellent breathing and the X-flow has superb valving and brilliant combustion.

So, here's the point and it's highly contraversial.

You can't get an exhaust manifold to resonate properly unless you get the engine to produce power and torque.
This is called the virtuous curve. When the engine breathes deeper, the exhaust resonates better, and hey presto the engine breathes even deeper...and so it goes on, more power, until the different bits reach equilibrium!

The only thing you can do with the Spitfire engine sensibly then is to try to get the head to breathe better (almost hopeless with the angle and shapes of the exhaust tract), and as the small valve area, and bad chamber shape, is the primary reason for the poor torque and low efficiency at medium to high revs, (shrouded as it is by the deep chamber), then extra power can only come from better valve shapes, and a shallower chamber.
This of course is what makes the 1300 work so much better, and produce good torque at 5000rpm. It's the same for the GT6 engine EXACTLY.

Increasing the lift above 0.440 doesn't appear to make any difference whatever, even with the shallow chamber, so you are stuck with a 4-2-1 manifold as the only measure to get back the lost torque above 6000rpm, and forget wasting the energy lifting the valves to 0.500+, it's NOT a mini engine and it doesn't work like one!

GT


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